| Bullshit! & South Park's Criticisms of 12 Step are... Bullshit! |
| Written by John Rozewicki | |
| Thursday, 10 August 2006 | |
Pop CriticismRecently, it has become fashionable for skeptics to attack 12 Step programs from philosophical angles that don't really hold up to closer inspection of how such programs work. Episode 9x14 of South Park explores the issue of alcholism and picks mainly at 2 things. The first being that 12-Step programs require the belief in god. The second being that alcoholism is all about a person's discipline or will, and that the disease analogy for alcoholism is inaccurate. Episode 2x10 of Bullshit! makes some of these same arguments. As a member of one such program myself, I feel obligated to step up and defend something I feel is very important. I think that these criticisms of the 12 steps make assumptions that stem from misunderstandings of the literature of such programs.12 Step is Alcoholics Anonymous?South Park tends not to make this assumption as much, the show tends to stay on the topic of alcoholism but I wouldn't be surprised if the show's creators intended to criticisize all such programs. Bullshit, on the other hand, makes this assumption early on and then runs with it. The title of 2x10 is '12 Step', but they draw many of their examples, including one that's kind of below the belt, from Alcoholics Anonymous. It's important to point out that each of these 12 Step programs is a separate organization. Alcoholics Anonymous is not affiliated with Narcotics Anonymous or Al-Anon. If one is to set about debunking 12 Step programs then one needs to stick to the source material they all have in common; the 12 Steps.A Belief in God2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.It is unfortunate that Bill W. chose the words God and Him when writing the 12 Steps. People's minds tend to fixate on these two words, and then ignore the most important part of step 3, "...as we understood..." Those 3 words pretty much vanquish any argument that 12 Step programs are religion. Those 3 words means that you can believe in whatever the hell you like, as long as you believe you are not in control of that thing. You can even be an atheist. I know, because I am an atheist who practices the 12 Steps; a position supported specifically in the section about steps 2 and 3 in the Al-Anon book Survival to Recovery. A wonderful analogy for the role of the higher power in the 12 Steps is this: The higher power can be anything greater than you; a toilet for example. You can write things down on pieces of paper and flush them to turn them over to that higher power. I can almost guarantee you won't be compelled to, nor able to, take things back from it. Things flushed down the toilet are outside your grasp; not in your control.My higher power is, put simply, the world. I am ultimately powerless to control anything outside of my own actions. I will admit that it can be difficult to participate at meetings as an atheist. There is a definite unspoken rule within many groups that the God of the 12 Steps does in fact mean the one true God of the Bible. This doesn't change the fact that it is the official position of the 12 Steps themselves and all literature that it can be any higher power of your understanding. All it takes is a little perserverance to find a group that actually follows the steps and traditions as they were written, the way they were meant to be followed. This is why the example from Bullshit! is below the belt. They take a camera to the offices of Alcoholics Anonymous and find evidence of religion. This only proves that Alcoholics Anonymous may be violating the steps and traditions. It doesn't prove anything about the 12 Steps themselves, or about any of the other 12 Step programs in existence. Alcoholism as a Symptom of a DiseaseAlcoholism and things like it are symptoms of a larger problem. This is why addiction is not defined by the amount of use. Addictions are defined as the ongoing use in the face of serious consequences; losing jobs, family, etc. People who drink so much that they have these consequences obviously have larger problems than just the alcoholism. The problem with the will power argument is that it assumes that the drinking is the entirety of the problem. If the people quit drinking, they will magically become better. If all alcoholics needed was to stop drinking then the will power argument would work. Anyone who has done any 12 Step work will tell you that Alcoholics are, for the most part, very very unpleasant right after they quit drinking. This is because addicts fundamentally have trouble coping. They seek out unhealthy methods of managing unpleasant feelings. Alcoholics drink alcohol. Bulimics purge. When they quit drinking, they quit the only coping mechanism they have. This is where the program comes in. It helps build coping skills so that the alcoholic no longer needs to drink to feel better. Dr. Drew Pinsky, a board certified addiction medicine specialist, has said numerous times that nobody is happier than heroine addicts at the onset of their addiction. Addicts do what they do because it comforts them in ways they are unable to do otherwise. Their normal coping skills are broken; usually by trauma in their early childhood. People speaking about the disease of alcoholism are doing so as an analogy for reasons that are important to those people who need help. People have trouble understanding psychological disorders. Depressed people resist taking medication to compensate for the brain imbalance that causes their depression. People with diabetes less commonly resist taking medication because they understand the mechanics of it. Saying that alcoholism is a disease sends a message to those people who have it that they need treatment.Relinquishing ControlAlcoholics and addicts are by definition narcissists who believe they are in control of a world that revolves around them. This is why the theme of reqlinquishing control is so important in recovery. These people are unable to control their lives; as evidenced by them losing jobs, family, etc. By relinquishing control and asking for help from people around them, AA, they can begin to recover from their disorder. The sponsor relationship, which I never hear talked about in criticism, is actually one of the big reasons why 12 Step recovery works as well as it does. People do a lot of talking about asking their higher power for help, but what they actually do most often is ask for an honest 3rd party perspective, their sponsor. The sponsor provides the honesty that's needed for people early on in recovery. It is very important later in recovery for that same person to become a sponsor themselves so that they can apply the tools they have learned and also get experience so they may more easily apply them to their own lives.Erroneous ComplaintsQ: If 12 Step isn't religious then why do they meet in churches? A: Church rooms are available for rent. 12 Step groups are fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions(tradition 7). They must rent from churches. Also, the situation is very similar to other charitable things churches may do; like run battered womens' shelters. Q: Isn't it cult-like? A: If 12 Step is a cult it's unlike any cult I've ever seen. They decline outside contributions(tradition 7), and their public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion(tradition 9). There is group autonomy(tradition 4), their members are anonymous(tradition 12), and leaders are trusted servants who do not govern(tradition 2). Also, as groups, they have no opinion on outside issues(tradition 6).Conclusion12 Step recovery is about teaching people to honestly look at their lives and behavior patterns, ask for help, and realize that a person is ultimately powerless over everything but their own actions. It teaches people who are out of control to live more simply, and with more clearly defined boundaries. I can see why people who are not alcoholics or codependants themselves would have trouble seeing what 12 Step is really about. I know that my intro psychology class didn't cover any of the specifics of 12 Step. Not suprisingly, most of the people in recovery don't actually know how any of it works. They just know that it does. I know that it does. I would suggest anyone who has a beef with AA or 12 Step programs actually take the time to at least read the steps and traditions. If they do, I think they will find that many of their fears are answered explicitly in either of those places. There is no hidden meaning. They mean exactly what they say. Finally, this article is not in any way condoning mandatory attendance of such meetings by the state. I do believe that that is wrong. People need to be in recovery because they want to be, otherwise it probably won't work. People who want to know more about the extent to which psychological disorders are misportrayed in the media should read this article here; Acceptance Through Denial: Eating Disorders, Alcoholism, and Dr. Phil.Trackback(0)
Comments (42)
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written by andrew , July 04, 2008 your a fucking idiot. you are either a complete loser with nothing better to do than 'work the steps' or you are just a fool. do you think the God you turn yourself over too wants you to waste your life participating in this warped way of life? Maybe you should let people know how people like you take advantage of weak people when they are at an emotional low and push your sick worldview on them. People like you are the scum of the earth and you deserve the miserable life that you live. ...
written by Jeff , October 05, 2008 Could the person who commeted please justify their comments? I found this article very useful Thanks ...
written by jeff , October 19, 2008 I would like to know why people with DUI's or other alcohol related crimes are being forced to attend programs such as these? this is the main thing that stuck out to me as soon as i read the 12 steps and the variations of it. It seems very forceful on religion and i believe that is a violation of our rights as Americans. ...
written by dude , December 16, 2008 I've tried going into the program and have had problems and I never solved my problems and they got worse when I "turned my will over to god" honestly, life just isn't that simple man. Everyones got problems, everyone finds different ways to deal with them, a person is only an alcoholic when they are physically addicted. Otherwise if it weren't the alcohol, it'd be food, sex, living, solving their problems, whatever. ...
written by mike , May 06, 2009 the steps provide a design for living for people who are too stupid to figure out how to live life in peace ...
written by joe blow , May 27, 2009 the only people who i have seen to quit drinking successfully had already hit bottom and were ready to quit. this is why they went to a rehab clinic of their own accord in the first place. the only thing 12 step does is 1: force addicts who are not ready to quit to walk out the door, and potentially resist future help, or 2: co-opt the recovery of someone who was ready to quit on their own and take credit for what any method could have accomplished (ie: helping a person ready to be sober to relearn healthy coping mechanisms and how to deal with every day life). If you're ready to quit, you'll quit, it is that simple. thousands of people die every day from being unable to quit smoking, and thousands of people live longer because they were able to quit smoking on their own. the number of smokers who quit (the highest relapse rate of any addictive drug) without help every year proves it is all about the person. ...
written by Alex , July 02, 2009 I was sent to AA against my will per order of the police. I continued drinking while going to the mandated meetings, and for another 4 months. Now (2 years later) I am happily sober thanks primarily to AA, and I am also an atheist. Joe Blow- wrong mike- i would agree dude-try harder, you can be detrimentally addicted to anything that feels good, these addictions are a symptoms and the 12 steps are a great way to attack the root of the problem jeff- wrong, the steps are NOT religious if you make an effort to understand them, however, an ignorant person could certainly see them as religious. also, being forced to attend a meeting is NOT equivalent to being forced to believe what you hear. the 12 steps are a great thing to have in your toolkit andrew- you have issues, and the life alcoholics lead BEFORE AA is warped- abusing spouses and kids, killing people while driving drunk, breaking into houses and cars for money for booze. life THANKS to AA is not warped: getting a job, supporting yourself and your family, picking up the pieces of your life and making amends, being a responsible and reliable person who contributes to society is not warped. ...
written by Isegoria1 , August 21, 2009 Alcoholism is a disease like OFF is a TV channel. Who knew people would go to such ends to cover up willful stupidity? ...
written by luling , August 23, 2009 If you are going to quit, you will quit. AA has absolutely nothing to do with it. ...
written by Steven M Scotten , September 07, 2009 AA never asked the courts to send DUI offenders to meetings. Neither did NA or any 12-step fellowship. It started when individual people tried to use their attendance at AA meetings as evidence that they were doing better. Then it got to be a common enough practice that defense attorneys and prosecutors started negotiating terms including such evidence. When such a plea bargain is reached, a Judge will endorse it and it will go into the terms of the sentence. No one has EVER been "sentenced to AA." If you're going to meetings to get your attendance slips from the judge signed, talk to your own attorney, because it was his or her idea in the first place, and it's why you weren't just thrown in jail where you belong. As far as alcoholism being a disease, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. DSM IV says it is. I think whether it is or not is a semantic question. The real question is: is it effective to treat is as though it were a disease? The answer is absolutely yes. ...
written by joe blow , November 02, 2009 The DSM used to define homosexuality as a disease also - but it no longer does. Hardly a definitive resource. ...
written by My own , November 04, 2009 Alcoholism/addiction as a disease is an analogy. There's a lot more to it than that. New research into epigenetics (inheriting genes that are turned on or off in parents) is showing that people whose parents were exposed to high levels of stress (e.g. child abuse) had children who were much more likely to use drugs and alcohol, even when they themselves did not. Depression, anxiety, etc. can all contribute to substance use and abuse. If you don't think those are legitimate illnesses you're fucking nuts. I think the funniest thing about the southpark episode, is that it makes Trey Parker and Matt Stone look about as stupid as Tom Cruise ranting about Psychology. Those douche bags are not qualified to comment, and people who think that these problems are due to "weakness" are incredibly arrogant (they're pretty much saying "look how strong I am. I don't drink to excess. I'm better than you. Why can't you be more like me). That episode ruined me for South Park, and the only way I'd ever watch again would be if Trey Parker and Matt Stone spoofed themselves, showing what major assholes they really are (maybe they can double team Mrs. Garrison). ...
written by kate , February 03, 2010 Wow, what passionate, opposite comments on the subject. I know what I believe...and whatever you believe is YOUR STUFF!!  Your opinions about me are none of my business and in no way effect me whether I'm a Christian, Jew, atheist, or drug addict. I still wish light and love to anyone who has posted or will post....even if it pisses you off to high hell! ...
written by Zee , February 25, 2010 I have read all the comments.. Some interesting stuff... I have been a member of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous for over 3 years. i recently decided to leave.. My reasons are as follows.. 1. NA/AA meets all the relevant criteria of a cult. My main problem with NA/AA is that there is no out. Whenever I talked about leaving people are always trying to convince me to stay. I get told the NA program is perfect its me who needs to change. The fact is I wasnt happy in NA. 2. To Me NA is extreme religion used for treating addiction. Even Bill W knows that he took the program from a sect of christianity from 'Buchmanism".. Which basically stated that we are all sinful therefore we have to surrender to a higher power and confess our wrong doings in order to be saved. 3. NA pushes many slogans.. one of them is being open minded. But this is not real open mindedness.. You have to be open minded to the 12 steps. You are not supposed to be open minded to other forms of treatment. 4. In christianity if you dont accept jesus as your savior you go to hell.. In NA/AA if you dont work the steps you will relapse and Die. That doesnt sound like much of a choice to me. 5.The ultimate aim of NA is to carry the mesage to the addict who still suffers. This translates simply into recruiting more cult members. You can only keep what you have by giving it away... Again.. You have no choice.. if you dont recruit more members you will lose what you have.. 6.Sayings such as "I can never trust my own thinking".."My life always goes better when I listen to my sponsor" is not the talk of free people. I have been in NA for awhile and I have been one of those people who follow the program to the T.. Out of fear of relapse... Hang out with the winners I was told.. Which basically means I ostracised people who werent working the program propoerly.. Fact.... Being in NA/AA is a sentence.. u need to go to meetings for the rest of your life.. period... To me thats a sentence... As far as the disease thing goes.. Lets look at an analogy.. If I have had cancer and fought my way through it and made it.. Why would I want to live the rest of my life through this experience.. Im cured I wanna move on and focus on my new life... Fact.. it is not helpfull to constantly live your life through your past addiction... The pin dropped for me when I realised I am free.. I do not have to pick up.. twelve steps or not its my choice now if I pick up.. Mine alone.. I dont have to worry about all the steps and live in fear of relapse... Also lets be real here..In NA/AA you are not allowed to question the basic text... Why? Free thinking is not encouraged remember "your thinking is what got you here in the first place" Thats totally crazy.. The AA big book was written by a man not God.. I can question it if I want,, Thats the manipulation in AA/NA very subtle but there... And you know what,,, I dont want what Bill W had.. He was a narcissit who treated his wife terribly.. He swindle the copyright for the Big Book and lived off the proceeds.. never working a day again in his life... He was a chronic smoker and justified this in the Big Book..If you read the big book he makes AA sound like a boys club..He states that families should be grateful that their husbands are now sober.. dont ask to much of your husbands now.. Just let him go to meetings. He experimeneted with LSD as a way to increase his contact with his God.. this doesnt sound like the kind of life I want! What AA/NA does is replace one shackle of Chains with another... I have seen people who work the program hard and to be honest the scare me.. they seem eery and creepy to me.. they have this glint in their eye that screams blind submission... And finally are we really powerless. I most certainly am not... At the end of the day Its my choice to choose to pick up and drink or use,, not god... And If you know anything about quantum physics you will know that human beings have the potential to be infinitely powerfull in terms of manifesting the life they desire... Yes treat addiction.. I agree.. But the treatment of the addict should be more important than AA/NA Not vice versa.. ...
written by j davies , March 04, 2010 If AA/NA are not explicitly Christian programs then why did every meeting I attended close with the Lord's Prayer?? The disease concept and powerlessness is bullshit too!! Their own figures show a success rate of about 5% 11 ...
written by Eddie D. , March 08, 2010 Why hate something like the 12 steps? It's a process to help individuals develop humility and better their lives. Not any single individual is the embodyment of the program and there is no leadership, each member is as valid as any other. The only requirement for membership in NA (the program I'm familiar with) is a desire to stop using. You don't need faith or religion or a sponsor, you don't even need to work the steps. There are definilty assholes who belong to 12 step fellowships, but there are assholes everywhere, just look at this message board. People flip out of the idea of powerlessness and a power greater, but that's just basically a lipnus test having more to do with a given individual's perspective on authority. To me powerless means I shouldn't force everything to be the way I want it. I am responsible for the things I do and my reactions to people, places, and things, but I can't ultimatly force things outside myself to conform to my whims. The God of my understanding is of my own understanding, no one has ever told me what it needs to be. And if anyone ever does try and force their spirituality on me, I'll accept that's what they think and move on. And please, the whole program is to help people who are desperate to stop using substances but can't. If a person is homeless and starving because of a chemical addiction, they need assistance. Of course most of the people outside looking in resent addicts and consider them pitiful pieces of shit. That is why the meetings are so releaving. We are amongst our peers who understand what it's like to lose self control and get high all the fucking time, even after you don't want to. Even after everyone you care about has taken off. To spend your last five dollars on dope instead of food, when you know that you need to eat. I'm inclined to say 'fuck you' to all the perfectly normal voyeurs who wanna fucking tell me to just straighten up and use discretion, but that's contrary to the whole spirit of the 12 steps. You do whatever the fuck you want and I'll try to keep my own house in order. ...
written by Zee , March 18, 2010 Eddie I hear what you are sayin. A few months ago i would have agreed with you entirely.. My only Concern is that You are taking the term powerless and giving it your own definition... I used to do the same... However Powerless means that you have no control. You are totally powerless.. This I cannot agree with because i always had the power to pick up or not pick up.. Yes my HP helped but at the end of the day when I was in pain and I wanted to pick up I didnt.. I exerted my power in this instance.. Powerless doesnt mean you shouldnt force your ideas on someone else as you stated above... Thats more like showing love and respect for others which is awesome!! good on you.. That has been my main problem with NA and AA. Is that concepts and definitions are changed to make it more palatable... If powerless doesnt really mean powerless then why isnt the wording in step one changed?.. Call a spade a spade... To me this is another sign of the subtle manipulation of the 12 step program.. Here is my suggestion to anyone who wants to stop drinking or using... Go to Rehab.. this will give you a good solid foundation... When you leave rehab make a concerted effort to explore your spirituality.. This is ultimately why we all drank or used cos we were cut off from God(The universe whatever your belief) Get a good support structure.. Have people you can confide in...And under no circumstances do you pick up or drink... DO NOT SEE YOURSELF AS HAVING A DISEASE! This is not healthy and will hold you back.. No 12 steps.. u dont need em.. And the most important thing.. go out and live your life... Dont be scared too.. Remember AA success rate is the same as any other recovery program.. 3-4%.. The reality is its hard to quit.. but its possible.. ...
written by asd , April 05, 2010 I'll put it simply- the reason why so many have such strong feelings against AA/NA is the result of being told(and believing) that if you don't work the steps you face a certain alcoholic/drug-addicted death. Bill Wilson said that not following the steps will "almost certainly" result in (that alcoholic) "signing his own death warrant"(12/12, pg.174). Oh yes, no coericion in that: follow the steps or die miserably! ...
written by asd , April 05, 2010 Ps, I think it's funny that "my own" stated that he/she wouldn't watch/support South Park anymore because they criticized his favourite cult(AA/NA). Isn't that remarkably similiar to Isaac Hayes' reaction when South Park spoofed his own favourite cult(Scientology)?!? Funny how cult members get all defensive when "those who don't understand" make fun of their beloved, lovely, and (always) purely benevolent and beneficial cult... ...
written by asd , April 05, 2010 Pps, Steven Scotten- The DSM-IV most definately never defined "alcoholism" as a disease. Where did you hear this from? Also, are you seriously trying to say that no one is "forced" to attend AA/NA(through the courts) because they're given the "option" of jail?!? If so, I'll put you down as exhibit #1 of what happens to an individuals critical thinking ability after prolonged exposure to AA. ...
written by SDFrankie , April 20, 2010 Very disingenuous point you make about religion/God. I've been in and around AA for more than 25 years and to say it's not religious is to play stupid word games. Read the entire book and there can be no doubt they are pitching a monotheistic philosophy. Don't be fooled by the "your Higher Power can be a doorknob" bullshit. It's a lie. What they really mean is that you can start with a doorknob but there's no doubt you're expected to end up with an invisible friend who intercedes in your life in a way that defies evidence, reason and logic. I don't understand why they can't be honest abut this point. It's a God-based program and I don't mean a door-knob based program. And it's bullshit. The central premise is that the same God who allowed you and countless others to suffer with alcoholism for years will suddenly remove the compulsion to drink from you under certain conditions. And so he does. About 1 out of 20 times. Roughly the same recovery rate as doing nothing. ...
written by Dan N. , May 16, 2010 The whole "12 Step Programs are cults" idea that is being propagated in these comments is really just silly, and plain ignorant. I disagree with a lot of the hypocrisy, contradiction and such that exists in 12 step programs, but a cult? Give me a break.. "My main problem with NA/AA is that there is no out. Whenever I talked about leaving people are always trying to convince me to stay." #There is no out? Will people physically drag you to meetings if you stop attending? I think not. People are trying to convince you to stay because they want you to succeed, and want the best for you. You sound paranoid..the program will carry on fine without you, they don't need to suck your blood or anything..You may get a few phone calls urging you to come back, but that's usually what people who care for each other do when they see someone leaving an organization that may help them. "To Me NA is extreme religion used for treating addiction." Extreme religion? AA is undoubtedly founded on religious (monotheistic Jud./Christian) tenants, but it is only suggested that one finds a "higher power of their understanding" (at least in NA, the fellowship I am familiar with)...there is no religious "requirement" "NA pushes many slogans.. one of them is being open minded. But this is not real open mindedness.. You have to be open minded to the 12 steps. You are not supposed to be open minded to other forms of treatment." This I do agree with, at least to some degree. If "open-mindedness" means exploring other avenues outside of 12 step for recovery, NA and AA aren't really keen on it (not THAT kind of "open-mindedness"  This may be a negative aspect of the program, but doesn't make it a cult. Nothing is forced on you, you just may be looked down on for looking outside of the steps for recovery, or challenging the program (again, I don't agree with this, but I see why and how it occurs..if newcomers were constantly challenging the very basis of the program, it could be an issue) "In christianity if you dont accept jesus as your savior you go to hell.. In NA/AA if you dont work the steps you will relapse and Die. That doesnt sound like much of a choice to me." You always have a choice. NA/AA just stresses that choosing to work the Steps is the best way to stay clean, and if you don't work them, you risk NOT staying clean. Obviously NA/AA is going to promote their own program, and insist that it is the best way to recover..What do you expect them to say, "We want you to work our program, but it's really just OK, you could try something else.."? No, they want to give the members confidence that they will succeed using this "proven" program. 5.The ultimate aim of NA is to carry the mesage to the addict who still suffers. This translates simply into recruiting more cult members. You can only keep what you have by giving it away... Again.. You have no choice.. if you dont recruit more members you will lose what you have.. "Sayings such as "I can never trust my own thinking".."My life always goes better when I listen to my sponsor" is not the talk of free people." Getting advice from others who have experience and success in trying to achieve the thing you want to achieve is never a bad thing - this is true is all aspects of life. Some people go further with the "powerlessness," concept than others..some truly cannot trust their own decision-making ability in regard to addiction, as it has always hindered them in the past. You might be able to say that for some, these programs don't help them become as self-reliant as maybe they should, but they aren't CONTROLLED by anyone, in some cult-like way. As I said, I am really only experienced with NA (typically considered less strict and more progressive on some of these concepts than NA), but I have never truly encountered any behavior that I would consider cult-like. When someone leaves, sure, people call them and urge them to come back, but if that person really wants to stop coming, they stop coming. This isn't like some gang where someone needs witness-protection to escape from. People want others to stay because they genuinely grow to like that person, and want them to succeed. As for the tenants of the program, as it is constantly said, NA is "a program of suggestions." They suggest you attend meetings often, they suggest you get a sponsor, they suggest you don't get in new relationships in early recovery, they suggest you find a higher power of your understanding, If you do none of these things, guess what the repercussions from the group are? Nothing. You can come to one meeting a month, have no sponsor, not work any steps, and earn your living as a pimp, and you would still be welcomed into meetings(Some cult, eh?). The group will suggest that you change your behaviors and your program if you want to stay clean, and tell you what their experience is, and what worked for them, but that's as far as it goes. All they can do it suggest and recommend, they do nothing by force or coercion. Believe me, I have quite a few issues with the literature and the fellowship (especially as an atheist in the program), but I see that it does a lot of good for a lot of people (from every walk of life). Once I stopped trying to point out every negative aspect of the program, I began to see all the good it was doing. The program has flaws, no doubt, but it is also amazingly helpful for so many reasons. The program continues to grow and evolve, and if it works for someone, I see no reason to constantly bash it. ...
written by Dan N. , May 16, 2010 I just forgot to respond to this: "5.The ultimate aim of NA is to carry the mesage to the addict who still suffers. This translates simply into recruiting more cult members. You can only keep what you have by giving it away... Again.. You have no choice.. if you dont recruit more members you will lose what you have.." The point of this is simple. If this program helped you change your life for the better, and helped you become a much better version of yourself, wouldn't you want to share your experience with other addicts, who may be able to similarly benefit? Helping others helps build self-esteem, among other things. Building self-esteem helps you recover and stay clean, thus helping spread the message to active addicts helps YOU stay clean. It isn't as if NA forces it's members to go actively recruit for the fellowship (like members of the military..strange, that isn't a cult either) making one put in community service hours to put up NA flyers and go recruit kids at local schools. Rather, they suggest that you share your experience and message with other addicts whenever possible, as it is likely that this will make YOU feel good (for doing an positive deed)which will in turn help your recovery. It isn't like NA says to members "go find 10 addicts and bring them to this meeting..you can't retain membership unless you do this work for us"...THAT would be a cult.. ...
written by Greg M , June 10, 2010 i think trey parker and matt stone, ultimately, were calling out people who have developed the habit of drinking and thus call it a disease, thus lumping themselves with others who use alcohol to deal with deeper issues. sure south park called out AA for pushing religion, but i think that topic in it of itself has been discussed enough in this forum's comments. ...
written by moonstones69 , June 17, 2010 Like most members of NA, I am financially better off than I was before I started to attend NA meetings. I was a long term heroin addict and welfare recipient. I am now an author and an academic. I have a post graduate education. I have a sense of self that encompasses philosophical and political debate, and is more free than it has ever been. I owe this to the twelve steps of NA. I can and will openly debate the effectiveness of Narcotics Anonymous with other members of NA, as well as people from outside the fellowship. I have an understanding of a Higher Power that is particular to me, and is not a big guy in the sky with a white beard and a clipboard. I can debate the nature of God with a garbage man or a philosophy professor. I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I am free to question anything, and with fellow recovering addicts, as well as my friends outside Narcotics Anonymous, I discuss the concept of powerlessness and how it applies to our lives. The basis for any cultish activity is slavery of the mind and the body and the soul. As I have already said, I am free to think and say what I like. I am also free to travel where I like. (Something that was denied to me as a using addict.) And I am free to worship what I like. The chief aim of a cult is for the enslaved minions to beg on the streets to put the gas in the tanks of the cadillacs of the gurus. I donate around five dollars a week to NA, which is less than one percent of my income. If Narcotics Anonymous is a cult, then it is not a very effective one. ...
written by A Jane , August 05, 2010 What if you are someone attending NA or AA because they saw they were going in a direction of alcohol abuse and wanted to reevaluate the role they want alcohol to have in their life? NA and AA urge people to stop all together, which I'm sure is the best choice for some people. But what about the people who feel that they want to use alcohol like a "normal" person does: An occasional beer or two and for celebrations. No vomiting, no blacking out...just enjoying something with friends? Is there a way for someone who feels that they have figured out something about their own selves and lives to change the way they use alcohol by going to meetings. Because meetings encourage people to never drink again. But some people might just desire to take it down a notch, as they say, and believe in themselves to do that. ...
written by Sarah , November 30, 2010 The idea that all people classified under the category "addict" are narcissistic and believe the world revolves around them is completely erroneous. As a person recovered from an eating disorder, this notion is highly offensive to me, as is the notion that complete submission to a higher power is necessary for recovery. Many people with addictions are in oppressed positions and need EMPOWERMENT--not further submission. In my own recovery, I found that realizing that I actually COULD recover on my own was the one missing piece. I had been listening too closely to all kinds of people in my life who told me that I would only get well if I submitting to a doctor, a therapist, a nutritionist, a program, or a God (and by the way, I do believe in God), and in all of this no one ever once suggested to me that I could find the power within myself to recover. I found that on my own, and I have been well ever since. The critics of twelve-step have many good points--you should do more research on those objections before assuming that all criticisms are based on misunderstanding or misapplication of the literature. ...
written by david , December 20, 2010 There is a paradox acknowledged by both my addiction counselor, and my AA group. That is the paradox of Step 1. By admitting powerlessness, we gain power to control. As an agnostic, I still cannot be sure if this is a "higher power." However, the "psychic change" that AA speaks of has occurred for me. Two things are worth noting here. AA members are generally happier and believe it or not, have a higher average income than the general population. As far as success rates go, they are much higher than 5% for people that give 100% of effort. Finally, it is worth noting that people attracted to this comment forum are those that were seeking information on alcoholism, and maybe south park. A lot of the blah blah on this thread is the exact same talk one hears in rehab or AA meetings, from bitter people. Nobody at AA gives a shit whether you believe in God or not, that's why they call it a "selfish program." Keep in mind that there are AA groups in 170 countries, and trust me, there are some very bad, counterproductive groups out there. I know I said I would only make two points. But the disease model is in fact correct. Much like evolution, the evidence will always have detractors. There is much we don't know, but it seems to be genetic, running in families. Research indicates that there is a different physiological response in the brains of people predisposed for addictive disease. Personally, thinking of it as a disease is liberating. I know I have responsibility of course, but it helps to know I am not weak willed or morally deficient. For someone who has worked the 12 steps, and am pursuing my PHD, I can say that the most important concept in AA is the idea that you are not God. All the higher power talk, the God stuff, what it is really getting at is that whoever, whatever, is or is not running the show, it ain't you buddy. That's why on AA coins it says "know thyself." Anyways, hater gonna hate I suppose, but the fact remains that AA has helped millions, and they fully admit that if you can do it differently, then they heartily congratulate you. In their experience though, other ways often fail. Let's hope science finds that "cure" that AA talks about. In the meantime, nothing else has helped people like AA. In conclusion, people in AA are generally a happy bunch of successful people, in all aspects of their lives, that's why people keep coming back to good groups! Haters gonna hate...... ...
written by david , December 20, 2010 reading my previous comment, I should clarify that AA mentions that "science has not found a cure that would allow us to drink like normal people." They do not claim a cure of course. Also, I need to mention that the reason I originally posted is cause, although a lover of south park, man, they really got it wrong, and all you haters are clearly bitter dooshbags who have not been able to achieve any measure of calmness or rationality in your lives. All I can say is, you are very sick people, but I have a solution that works for me. Like my mom says, the world would be a better place if everyone had to work the 12 steps. Oh, and AA thrives in buddhist countries, and thousands of atheists and agnostics owe their lives to it, so eat a dick with hoisin sauce. Sorry, we claim progress not perfection. ...
written by The Bear , January 23, 2011 OK, if you really want a good analysis on how 12 step programs are hypocritical and cult-like, READ THIS!! http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=124286697628456&topic=74 ...
written by Kevitoson , May 08, 2011 Bill W. Was insane. Even though his book was accepted as scripture ( which is the worst way to accept any book, as in the end that is all they are ) He started experimenting with LSD as a cure for this 'incurable' disease. Wittgenstein said, agree with it or not, any scientific hypothesis must be based on a falsifiable statement. Freud never had one. Neither did the great founder of AA. All science is hypothesis -- but to even acknowledge or build upon it: IT must have some feeling of true or false. AA is bullshit. Some people should not ever drink -- True. But trying to pass on the belief that is an incurable disease that God will spare you from if you offer your soul, is not only ludicrous but f***ing offensive. What if I had a brain tumor -- will turning my life to a higher power cure me of that?? No its like God said ( according to the lunatic that wrote the fucking book ) Oh you drunks and drug addicts give me your soul and I will save thee. If you got a real disease too fucking bad, your going to die in pain and I'll be there to watch while I'm connecting with the degenerates that can't control their use of booze. Nonsense. The whole fucking system. ...
written by Kevitoson , May 08, 2011 Do you really think Bill W. was like Jesus Christ? Maybe he was. Who cares. Why are there only 10 commandments? Why are there only 12 steps? Why do people accept the 12 steps like the 10 commandments ( in either case the concept is absurd ) Your reading a fucking book written by a normal fucking person, not God. If you adopt a belief system to the exclusion of all else and won't allow your brain to creep around its rigid but not impassable boundaries, then you are nothing but a pawn: a fascists wet dream. Believing in God is the 'subtle reality of the universe' -- it can not be described but only observed and what it ultimately means is something we can not ultimately know. To try and contain what is bigger and greater than our little ephemeral minds, takes balls: and it is useless as it is failure from the start. And it is not by the judgment of our friends or colleagues, but by the mere fact that a creation of the universe can not understand or manipulate its creator. Go have a drink and chill. k ...
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written by Sue , July 21, 2011 Before I found NA and AA I was just a tweaked out junkie. Looking at myself in the mirror I knew I probably going to die soon. I didn't give a fuck. But, I ended up going through a rehab facility that introduced my to twelve step programs like NA and AA and started coming around the rooms. I'm still fairly new in sobriety, but I've already began to put my life back together. I'm going to take classes at my local community college this fall. I'm on speaking terms with my family. And I couldn't have done that on my own. So don't be hatin' on twelve step programs. They work for a lot of us. And anyway...South Park makes fun of EVERYTHING. Who the fuck cares what it said, it's not the authority on anything, but it's still fucking hilarious. ...
written by SDFrankie , October 09, 2011 The idea that "as we understood him" inoculates AA against a charge of being religious is nonsense. And the idea that the act of belief, and not the object of that belief, is what matters is just beyond silly. It's also disingenuous. Nobody in AA thinks you can stay sober believing in a door-knob. They just say that to keep you coming back until you believe in a "real" god. Seriously, is this sort of belief any different than dumbo's magic feather. If what you believe in doesn't matter it's because it's not real. ...
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written by George Herbert Walker , February 16, 2012 @moonstones69 How can you be so sure that you aren't assigning too much credit to NA/the group for the sobriety you have earned? It's a given that talking with other addicts who have been in a similar situation can be therepeutic. But, at some point it becomes spiritually/psycologically detrimental to constantly yield to the conscience and ideology of the group over that of the individual, crediting individual achievements to a group rather than to the self regardless of whether or not the changes come from within. At some point it becomes unhealthy to abnegate your selfhood in a misguided and zealous effort to cauterize all hints of perceived selfishness. Self-actualization is a human psycoligical need, and the very nature of the literature and ideology of NA tend to frustrate this need, since the group and its ideology are forever righteous, regardless of the inner thoughts, feelings or beliefs of the individual. Having been to hundreds of NA meetings as well as these message boards, it has become all too commonplace to hear NA enthusiasts and defenders come forth with these vacuous platitudes and banal sloganeering. I often wonder if many of the more die-hard 12-steppers ever have original thoughts of their own which don't resemble the NA literature and dogma. NA needs to evolve to remain relevent, which mean it needs to deepen its ideological and philosophical scope and become less rigid. Otherwise, open-minded individuals who would like to remain free from both drugs as well as from pseudo-spiritual groups and ideologies which void their sense of self will begin to vote with their feet, as I and many others have done. As far the question of whether NA is a cult or not, this is a question which cannot be aswered so tidily with a yes or no. The are many characteristics of cults which are not present in NA, however there are also a great many which are present. Here is a list of 100 cult characteristics and an analysis of which ones would fit AA/NA. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a0.html ...
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